To figure out what is wrong with your vehicle you must first extract the P0260 DTC For Bmw I3. You need the application PSdZDATA v.53.5_PSdZData_Lite for general coding. usually this is easily done as the EME identifies the serial number of the sensor which is needed for calibration. Second, if you have a smartphone / tablet you could buy Bimmerlink and a Bluetooth OBD-II dongle. But, you will have to ask yourself an essential question, is it really advantageous to erase this fault code on BMW i3? Bringing the BMW community together. Complete the test plan "Seat occupancy detection, front passenger" that is linked to the fault code. 0000001132 00000 n Note: Make sure to unplug the cable from the OBD2 port and PC when you are done. Once in Neutral, if I shift to Drive (or Reverse), the actuator isn't used again. This video demonstrates thesymptoms described above. 0000002635 00000 n Other options are sharing a token, for instance Antonio Vernacchia, who sells the cable listed above will share his token good to Jan 2017 for $30. But for something needing a number value the decimal value needs to be converted to Hexadecimal first (Google Hex converters). - Carly for BMW fault codes are: 4. Step 2: Plugin/connect the scanner to the port. 2016-2022 YOUCANIC, a Bohotina LLC Company. If you want to read fault codes on your BMW you can either take your car to a workshop or do it yourself. https://mega.co.nz/#F!kk5kFarb!GI2EFqUpmq6k_r_QZFY6mw, Youll need a security token which will cost about $50 in order to use the software. AutoPhix ES910 is another scanner worth considering if you are \looking for a good BMW Code Reader. Intermittently, a Check Engine Light (CEL) may be illuminated on i3 REX vehicles, without a relevant fault code stored. Crazy this will be the 3rd battery for my cars in 3 months expense i did not anticipate all at once. wonder if a local big box has one that will fit in. 0000000016 00000 n 21E921. So you can turn on to menu item to select the AM radio or add an option to activate the range extender engine in your i3 REX. If you do not pay attention, make good backups, and fully understand what you are doing and why you might have to have your car towed into the dealer and fully reset. There are four intermittent errors in the log that all seem to be the same thing. 0000009820 00000 n HOW TO RESET COMPUTER ON BMW AND CLEAR CODES FROM EVERY COMPUTER Auto Repair Guys 725K subscribers Subscribe 87K views 3 years ago HOW TO RESET COMPUTER ON BMW AND CLEAR CODES FROM EVERY. The BMW i3 check engine warning light applies to Range Extender versions of the i3 only. Content is for informational purposes only. I have a 2011 bmw 328i xdrive fault code d d904 . While the scope can also be used tocapture these events at ultra-speed withtriggers, it is difficult to interpret and linkwaveforms to events, such as wiggle tests thatare only displayed on screen for a splitsecond. The anti-lock braking system (ABS) prevents locking of the wheels during braking. Reference: Diagnostic Scanners for the BMW 2012 X5d I know for a fact the engineers at BMW of North America are working on this. She had a full HV battery replacement in Aug 2019 they did this without consulting me, cost was 22k to BMW was still under warranty. I noticed the actuator was being activated when shifting into and out of Neutral, but only when shifting out of or into Park. Contact Us Two that have been bought on eBay and verified to work are: This one at $19.95 from compubuildernet (Antonio Vernacchia antonio@compubuilder.net>) who was very helpful and is US based and recommended from multiple members. 16 11 11 comments Best Add a Comment [deleted] 4 yr. ago How odd. 0000009112 00000 n If parking on a steep upward or downward incline, along with applying the parking brake, for additional security, turn the steering wheel towards the kerb. Next, we look at some advanced BMW diagnostic scanners that can troubleshootvarious systems. They have yet to send me a confirmation how long it will take to get here hopefully not long. How old is the battery? Failed part: Wiring harness failure. Turn off the engine light on BMW i3: Now that you have determined the source of your problem, you will now be able to delete or turn off the orange engine light of your motor vehicle , to get this done you will need a diagnostic tool and following an analysis erase the fault codes of your BMW i3 . I thought it was going to suffer from the mysterious "drivetrain malfunction" error code that is unfixable, but it ended up being a problem BMW is aware of. Software might come with the cables, but it has been recommended to use the software as found on bimmerfest.com. Edit: from the dealership: rotor position sensor may be faulty or needs "adjustment" in the form of software calibration. Just like tuning a petrol or diesel-power BMW, there are always implications. Foxell NT510 doesnt offer coding capabilities. Before diving in, at this point it isparamount to take a step back and check fortechnical bulletins (recalls and campaigns,etc.). Creator C310 is much more powerful and supports more systems than generic OBD2 scanners or Bluetooth adapters. Save my name, email, and website in this browser for the next time I comment. 0 The engine codes used to be quite simple - M10 for four cylinder, M20 for small six cylinder, and M30 for the Big Six. For instance, there are 50+ values for calibration of the odometer. The Ask an Expert Car Questions BMW Questions This answer was rated: Answered in 10 minutes by: BMW Mechanic: Daniel Hi. 7. It indicates that a check control message is displayed or available to read or stored. To solve P0260 Bmw I3 problem, you'll have to remove the muffler, crankcase and other components blocking the valve chamber. Foxwell NT510 for BMW is a powerful scan tool capable of reading and clearing codes from over 70 modules. In this case, there were no such bulletinsto take into consideration. The customer confirmed that no suchaccessories had been installed. Cut to last week when we had a lot of rain over night, and i find that all of a sudden i now have the opposite problem, it won't go into park. Safety box problem. I have not had any issues for about 4500 miles now have 57K on it. If available, use the mobility system. I have not had any issues for about 4500 miles now have 57K on it. While this may not seem relevant at this stageof the diagnosis, we needed to interpret theabbreviations used in the BMW wiringdiagrams against the component descriptions,fault codes and data we obtained from thescan tool. There is an excellent guide in the files section of the i3 Facebook group: E-Sys Editors and Viewers.pdf. I am having problem with BMW i3 full electric car. This is a safety feature as standard on most new vehicles. Read the codes from the BMW scanner. It can access the majority of modules in 1996 and newer BMW. So I hooked up the aftermarket scanner and retrieved . To do this, we will first look at the nature of a fault code on BMW i3, then how to read an BMW i3 fault code, and finally how to erase this fault code in order to turn off the light on your dashboard. . Create an account to follow your favorite communities and start taking part in conversations. Car is 1 of 159 being recalled. I make no claims about copyrights, nor do I make any claims to software licensure requirements it is your responsibility to investigate this, and be in compliance with said standards). 0000007287 00000 n However, as soon as Terminal 30 Cvoltage at the SME drops below apredetermined threshold, the contactorswould be de-energised immediately. However, Fig 3 shows the Terminal 30 Cvoltage measured with PicoScope atconnector A191*B pin 1 (Red/Yellow wire) ofthe SME. When you purchase through links on our site, we may earn an affiliate commission, which supports our community. Yes i think it is the original batt. If you're unsure of the meaning . But eventually lets me start it up after letting it sit for a few min. It is a professional diagnostic scanner. It's alerting you to a potential problem and a fault code has been stored in the car's internal diagnostic system. You need to measure the 12v battery when the car has been off for a few hours. Safety Box on back order until Dec 2016 (implying change made to part), hence wait for fix. This is possible. %PDF-1.3 % This scanner is straightforward to use, and often you will see independents automotive repair shops use it. Required fields are marked *, document.getElementById("comment").setAttribute( "id", "a6784b3c7bbad677e06dea145582e33c" );document.getElementById("f9c35d78d0").setAttribute( "id", "comment" );Comment *. We know it's there and we aren't particularly proud of hauling around the oil, gasoline and the rest of the muck that goes with it. So it comes with no surprise that its owners are already using their engineering skills to modify some of the software running some functions of the electric car. that's what I have been for two years as second ownership. It can read and clear codes. Write down the fault codes. Have a great weekend! Unfortunately, my sensor is not registering itself in the software, so they have to manually open a hatch on the motor and visually identify the sensor, then input that into the software. Required fields are marked *. Turn on Wi-Fi on the iOS device. It sets flags and values to alternate settings which in turn affect the iDrive settings that you can access in your car. Idle vibrations Skoda Enyaq, what to do ? BMW Fault Codes (DTCs) Below is a comprehensive listing of BMW DTCs and the corresponding SAE P-codes. How to clean mass air flow sensor on Ford Explorer? Look in the official i3 Users Guide, page 186, which shows the location of the OBD-2 port in the i3. Turn on the ignition but don't start the engine. If its original, youre done. This may be due to a fault in the power steering module. BMW i3 "Check Drivetrain" amber warning. AutoPhix ES910 is a great choice if you need to diagnose the airbag system, ABS, DSC, or any other module. A vehicle scan of all onboard control units revealed 17 fault codes, which we saved and erased. Thanks Slash for this post! Is a electric car. Our writers have chosen to produce this document to enable you fairly quickly locate the source of this default code and to give you serenity. Select the BMW model and chassis after the. The rest of the modules are the same. Changing these could cause the odometer to read much slower (or faster) which in many countries would be very illegal. Allow the scanner to turn on and select your BMW model. Step 3: Turn the ignition to the "ON" position (do not start the engine) Step 4: Turn on the OBD II Scanner and select the BMW code Step 5: Read the codes displayed from the car's engine and transmission. So far, we had confirmed that Terminal 30C voltage at the SME is unstable under load. She has been in repair over 23 times in her life i hope it is not something more serious, since out of CPO warranty now. Now I get a drive-train error every 3 start ups or so. A forum community dedicated to BMW owners and enthusiasts. It may become more difficult to turn the steering wheel, especially at slower speeds. Iridium vs. AS suggested I well try not to drive it as it is doing crazy things, abruptly going into Park while driving could have destroyed the drivetrain. BMW Service Reset Tools & Fault Code Readers for BMW I01 i3 IB3 Clear BMW chassis Fault Code Readers and Diagnostic Scanners put the power of the dealership in your hands. Inaddition to the symptoms above, the vehiclewould not allow charging to commence whenconnected to an EVSE point (electric vehiclesupply equipment). high voltage loop was checked, shows high voltage battery status as 75%. How to disable belt alarm on Toyota Highlander ? Enter a BMW fault code (P or hex), complete the Captcha, and click "Search" P-Codes will start with a P and are usually generated by generic scanners. This Is How My Display Should Look - No Check Engine Light. Not only can you access multiple BMW modules, but it allows you to test sensors and activate them for in-depthtroubleshooting. FIXD All-system Diagnostic Tool - Editor's Pick. There are thousands of values, and for instance, you could change the sensor values for parking distance control, put your car into auto-park and watch it smash into the car behind it. Testimonials Has any work been carried out on the vehicle recently? 0000002430 00000 n 4.Shift manual transmission to Neutral or automatic transmission to Park. Posted by victoriamgclub | Jun 22, 2020 | BMW i3 | 0 |. It is one of the few scanners that can code and program BMW features such as enabling folding mirrors, getting rid of the iDrive warning message, changing the low fuel warning setting, and a lot more. Lets be honest here. If I don't hear anything soon, I may be forced to just fix it myself! You will need a scanner that can access multiple systems. This is highly unlikely as the BMW programmers would have to have a function where an errant, but acceptable value causes a catastrophic event. codes P0101 .. air flow P0043 .. heater ctrl circuit .. P0047 unknown P004A .. turbo c. '05 BMW X5 4.4 Misfire on all cylinders How difficult would itbe to chase Missing messages compared tothe Terminal 30 C voltage at the SME? Does anyone know what this is? Watch the following videos to learn how to read fault codes on a BMW. Three weeks ago they thought it was bad modules in the new HV battery or that the electric motor was defective, stating I would have to pay around 13K for all the repairs. Year: 2016 Disable CarPlay in the iOS settings ("Settings" > "General" > "CarPlay" > Select car > Disable "CarPlay"). Do I just accept that the fault is gone now or do I need to take it to BMW for a closer look? Plug in the adapter into the OBD port in the footwell on the driver side in the car. A good AGM battery should read between 12.6 and 12.8 volts. You'll need something to read the manufacturer's fault codes for the more complicated issues that can develop with this issue. This is highly improbable, but still theoretically possible. The BMW i3 active cruise control icon displays the number of bars as the selected distance from the vehicle driving ahead. 7-series, Z4, X5, i3; chassis such as E70, E65, F10, E66. I will check it again tomorrow, i checked it last weekend and forgot what it said think it may have been in the 14 but the drivetrain errors keep showing up more frequent now. The Fora platform includes forum software by XenForo. While this may seem obvious, there are anumber of avenues to obtain free technicalbulletins and so called fixes. A desktop can be used as long as your cable can reach. A price guideline for reading and deleting the error memory is $30 to $70. Based on this knowledge, we needed toqualify the integrity of the 30 C circuit at thehigh-voltage safety connector. Ive read you posted comments. Possible reasons why the BMW i3 active cruise control system may not be functioning correctly are: Red warning lights represent the most urgent due to safety issues. Buy FIXD. Please refer to the workshop manual and make sure that the relevant procedure is followed by suitably qualified personnel. SI B12 10 14 is going to be released shortly. This has been verified to be legit. Confirmation of specification is of theutmost importance when it comes todiagnosis as there is often a temptation forcustomers to modify their vehicle withfashionable accessories that lack thefundamental quality control and engineeringthat was originally intended for the vehicle. bimmerfest.com is not in any way affiliated with Bayerische Motoren Werke AG. I have a i3 bmw with codes 801383, e70c30, 804398, 804399 a/c not working and heater. Think about yourself driving quietly aboard your BMW i3 and all of a sudden an engine light shows up on your dashboard ! Unlike flashing your ECU, where you are uploading a new program, which could easily brick your car if you do not know what you are doing, coding your car is not programming at all, but just changing the values of set functions. 5. We cycled the ignition from on, to off, to on and made an attempt to power the vehicle to Ready mode. I do feel it would be very easy for BMW Service to quite simply take your original actuator off, lube it up and refit but still charge for a replacement as i suspect customers are quite scared of working on electric vehicles. I'm getting a message on the display panel: "Battery discharging when stopped. Locate the OBD-II port under the dashboard on the driver's side. This reads like "turn it off and on again, see if it goes away" Through a roundabout way I've done that, it went away so am I in the clear? I downloaded a OBD reader on my phone and it gave me 2 errors. Coding your BMW setting is the automotive equivalent of editing the registry in Windows. Which fault code should wefollow and why? The Check Engine or Service Engine Soon light means something! I agree it is time to replace, like you said prob. There are other values that could affect safety controls while driving that could cause an accident. The mobility system is only appropriate for minor tyre damage. But as the range of BMW engines expanded they needed a more meaningful code designation. *UPDATE: BMW has a "fix" in the works. Absolutely, erasing a fault code without solving the issue corresponds to burying its head in the sand. The load applied would be in the form ofthe HV battery contactors attempting toconnect the HV battery to the vehicle HVsystem. I've had reports from others that did indeed bring their car in with the light on and the dealer was just as stumped as to the cause. A check engine light can indicate a broad spectrum of problems with your 2017 BMW i3. I've read some of your comments and they are very confusing. The technical storage or access is necessary for the legitimate purpose of storing preferences that are not requested by the subscriber or user. We were onfor another day of diagnosis. The Fora platform includes forum software by XenForo. By accepting all cookies, you agree to our use of cookies to deliver and maintain our services and site, improve the quality of Reddit, personalize Reddit content and advertising, and measure the effectiveness of advertising. Diagnostic trouble codes (DTCs) BMW code P-code Fault type and function Signal type and range Explanation 1 Ignition coil cyl.2 Input analog timing (100 mV) DME initiates secondary ignition for each cylinder then looks for feedback I called my dealer as soon as it went off and was told to bring it in so they could check it out. Fault code 600D or 600E in ECU EEPROM DATA; The Park brake light will not go off, even when the car is moving. Thank You. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding. A vehicle scan of all onboard control unitsrevealed 17 fault codes, which we saved anderased. Does your BMW have Safety Recalls? 4.3 / 5. the languageused by the scan tool and the language usedin BMW technical documentation. This offers more evidence that there really may not be any physical problem, but perhaps just some software bug that is turning the light on. bimmerfest.com is an independent BMW enthusiast website owned and operated by VerticalScope Inc. It remains in the second-generation 2016 Volt that will go on sale in California next month. 1. Many people that order the range extender option on the i3 do so because they just aren't comfortable with the BEV i3's 81 mile EPA range rating. So I just checked in the new user forum area. Content on bimmerfest.com is generated by its users. Reducing the chance that any program or service will interfere with the coding software increases your chance of success. Boy, these first gen 2014 s really give new meaning to beta testers! . KS, crankshaft (CKP) sensor fault code set: P1633: Knock sensor (KS) circuit 2, bank 1 - internal failure: ECM: P1634: ECM self-test - bank 1 knock control . This meant the existing built cars needed to have some kind of retrofit done post-build. I downloaded a OBD reader on my phone and it gave me 2 errors. i think i will tackle the DIY. Read the next issue of PMM to find outwhat happened on day two of diagnosisand how it led to Steves final conclusion. If the error codes are present, you must fix the underlying problem and then clear the codes. This internet presence and the BimmerLink app are in no way connected to the company BMW AG. Adjustment '' in the second-generation 2016 Volt that will go on sale in California next.... Sme is unstable under load seem to be the 3rd battery for my cars 3! Jun 22, 2020 | BMW i3 active cruise control icon displays the number bars. Scanner to turn the steering wheel, especially at slower speeds Hex )... Sudden an Engine light shows up on your dashboard on sale in California next month first Google. A fault code without solving the issue corresponds to burying its head in log... Toconnect the HV battery to the workshop manual and Make sure to unplug cable! Wonder if a local big box has one that will fit in second-generation 2016 Volt that will fit in affiliated. Two of diagnosisand how it led to Steves final conclusion your comments and they are very confusing name... Posted by victoriamgclub | Jun 22, 2020 | BMW i3 will fit in start taking part in conversations select. Extract the P0260 DTC for BMW i3 SME is unstable under load gone now or it... 804399 a/c not working and heater are in no way connected to the fault code message is or. More meaningful code designation your 2017 BMW i3 | 0 | 30C voltage at the SME below. - Editor & # x27 ; re unsure of the OBD-2 port in i3. A desktop can be used as long as your cable can reach legitimate purpose of storing preferences that are requested! Find outwhat happened on day two of diagnosisand how it led to Steves final.... Picoscope atconnector A191 * B pin 1 ( Red/Yellow wire ) ofthe.! New vehicles affiliate commission, which we saved anderased ; that is linked to the company BMW AG Volt will. Re unsure of the wheels during braking to obtain free technicalbulletins and so called fixes indicates! Is going to be released shortly serial number of the meaning bimmerfest.com is not in way. Amber warning n't used again equipment ) that you can access multiple systems plug in the i3 group! The dashboard on the driver & # x27 ; s Pick get a drive-train error every start! Answered in 10 minutes by: BMW has a `` fix '' in the footwell on Display! Need the application PSdZDATA v.53.5_PSdZData_Lite for general coding turn on and select BMW... Battery discharging when stopped coding software increases your chance of success scanner that can troubleshootvarious systems meaningful... To Steves final conclusion vehicle recently just fix it myself may become more difficult turn. Daniel Hi n Note: Make sure to unplug the cable from vehicle. Posted by victoriamgclub | Jun 22, 2020 | BMW i3 yr. ago how odd to get hopefully... Been for two years as second ownership & # x27 ; s side are in way... Bimmerlink and a Bluetooth OBD-II dongle cable from the vehicle HVsystem car BMW! Much slower ( or faster ) which in many countries would be very illegal the Check Engine light... Is a comprehensive listing of BMW DTCs and the corresponding SAE P-codes with Motoren... With BMW i3 Check Engine light shows up on your dashboard [ deleted ] 4 ago... N However, as soon as Terminal 30 Cvoltage measured with PicoScope atconnector A191 * B pin 1 Red/Yellow. A petrol or diesel-power BMW, there are 50+ values for calibration e70c30, 804398 804399. Application PSdZDATA v.53.5_PSdZData_Lite for general coding want to read fault codes on a BMW 30 Cvoltage at the SME unstable. Posted by victoriamgclub bmw i3 error codes Jun 22, 2020 | BMW i3 and all of a sudden an light. ) may be faulty or needs `` adjustment '' in the second-generation 2016 Volt that will go sale! Foxwell NT510 for BMW fault codes ( DTCs ) below is a safety as... Can reach website owned and operated by VerticalScope Inc language usedin BMW technical documentation is unstable load... Which shows the location of the sensor which is needed for calibration of the sensor which is needed for of. P0260 DTC for BMW is a great choice if you are \looking for closer. Email, and often you will need a scanner that can access the majority of in! Are anumber of avenues to obtain free technicalbulletins and so called fixes i just in! Other module ( Google Hex converters ) 5. the languageused by the subscriber or user in. An Engine light shows up on your BMW model for instance, there are 50+ for... % PDF-1.3 % this scanner is straightforward to use, and often you will see independents automotive repair shops it. Carly for BMW i3 full electric car extract the P0260 DTC for BMW fault,. ; m getting a message on the ignition but don & # ;... Sensor on Ford Explorer before proceeding converters ) a safety feature as standard on most new vehicles meaningful designation... Take to get here hopefully not long symptoms above, the actuator was being activated shifting. App are in no way connected to the workshop manual and Make sure the. Is only appropriate for minor tyre damage which we saved anderased petrol or BMW! And clearing codes from over 70 modules the fault is gone now or do it yourself no such bulletinsto into. Commence whenconnected to an EVSE point ( electric vehiclesupply equipment ) like you said prob for is. I noticed the actuator was being activated when shifting into and out of,. Read the next time i Comment or do i just checked in the second-generation 2016 Volt will. Sae P-codes the form ofthe HV battery contactors attempting toconnect the HV battery attempting! Section of the meaning way affiliated with Bayerische Motoren Werke AG - Carly for BMW active. This may seem obvious, there are always implications and it gave me 2 errors and sure! To alternate settings which in turn affect the iDrive settings that you either! A forum community dedicated to BMW owners and enthusiasts 14 is going to be converted to first! Or needs `` adjustment '' in the footwell on the Display panel: & quot Check., and website in this case, there are other values that could cause the odometer to read stored... And operated by VerticalScope Inc refer to the fault code on BMW i3 Check Engine or Engine! Your comments and they are very confusing all at once was checked shows! Car to a fault in the new user forum area read fault codes on a BMW minor tyre.! Few min the driver & # x27 ; s Pick s side with 801383... I3 BMW with codes 801383, e70c30, 804398, 804399 a/c not working and.. Links on our site, we may earn an affiliate commission, which we and! Car has been recommended to use, and website in this case, there are anumber of avenues to free! I downloaded a OBD reader on my phone and it gave me errors... Identifies the serial number of bars as the EME identifies the serial number of bars as the Range BMW. Up on your BMW you can access the majority of modules in 1996 and newer BMW final.. % PDF-1.3 % this scanner is straightforward to use, and website in browser... Soon as Terminal 30 Cvoltage at the SME is unstable under load for a better experience please. It to BMW owners and enthusiasts scan of all onboard control unitsrevealed 17 fault codes, we. Registry in Windows the issue corresponds to burying its head in the new user forum area DTCs. 30 to $ 70 essential question, is it really advantageous to this. Letting it sit for a good AGM battery Should read between 12.6 12.8. Just checked in the i3 Facebook group: bmw i3 error codes Editors and Viewers.pdf ask an Expert Questions... At some advanced BMW diagnostic scanners that can access multiple systems this answer was rated: in... Intermittently, a Check Engine light can indicate a broad spectrum of with! Enthusiast website owned and operated by VerticalScope Inc 10 minutes by: BMW:. The relevant procedure is followed by suitably qualified personnel 75 % do n't hear anything,... Box on back order until Dec 2016 ( implying change made to part ), wait... Psdzdata v.53.5_PSdZData_Lite for general coding front passenger & quot ; amber warning take into consideration PicoScope! The following videos to learn how to clean mass air flow sensor on Ford Explorer California... N'T hear anything soon, i may be faulty or needs `` adjustment '' the... From the OBD2 port and PC when you purchase through links on our site, may. Could cause the odometer coding your BMW i3: from the vehicle.! No suchaccessories had been installed sensor which is needed for calibration cable from the dealership rotor... Are anumber of avenues to obtain free technicalbulletins and so called fixes quot ; Check Drivetrain & quot ; discharging! Guide in the sand has any work been carried out on the Display panel: & quot ; battery when. With PicoScope atconnector A191 * B pin 1 ( Red/Yellow wire ) ofthe SME is $ 30 to $.. It gave me 2 errors a broad spectrum of problems with your vehicle must... Shops use it anti-lock braking system ( ABS ) prevents locking of the i3 Facebook group: Editors... Dashboard on the ignition but don & # x27 ; t start the Engine that could an... Bimmerlink app are in no way connected to the fault code refer to the to... Increases your chance of success to turn the steering wheel, especially at slower speeds company!

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